point of reference

In response to a video sermon by Paul Washer, two people "dialogued" (through comments) about a very important matter facing the church today. Then I responded to one of them.


debmlopez30 This is an awesome message! But I kept waiting for this preacher to give the biblical plan of salvation! It's more than just living right, and having a clean heart, and bearing good fruit. We are instructed in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized in Jesus name and as ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and as EVIDENCE you will speak in other tongues!!!
debmlopez30 Living a Godly, Holy, righteous life and bearing fruit is awesome and right and good, but God gives us specific instructions that we must also have the Holy Ghost! It's essential! It can't be left out and forgotten!

Passiflora101 Speak in tongues? Does your church have classes on how to do that? I understand Jack Hayford has them. Does God give special revelation to individuals in your church? Do you or people in your church get internal feelings, impressions, thoughts, or "anointings?"

debmlopez30 No our church does not give special classes in how to speak in tongues. I'm sorry I don't know who Jack Hayford is. Yes, God does give people in my church and many others churches feelings, impressions, thought and annointings!

Passiflora101 Hayford used to be president of Foursquare International. Ever heard of it? FI was founded by Aimee Semple McPherson. Heard of her?Do you know why Martin Luther protested the Roman Catholic Church, thus beginning the Protestant Reformation?

debmlopez30 I have heard of the Foursquare church but am not familiar with their doctrine. No I do not know why martin Luther protested the Roman Catholic church.

Passiflora101 Correction: Aimee Semple McPherson was the founder of the Foursquare Church, upon which FI was built. :-)Do you speak in tongues or get any special revelation which is not found in Scripture?

debmlopez30 Yes I have spoken in tongues. I am an Apostolic Pentecostal.

Passiflora101 When you speak in tongues, is it a real foreign language or just sounds like gibberish? Do you have an interpreter? Does anyone in your church openly speak in tongues with someone else to interpret, or does everyone just go to their closets, or speak tongues in a private setting?Have you, yourself received any special revelation through thoughts or feelings?

debmlopez30 I do not have an interpreter. Yes we openly speak in tongues, and at times there are interpretations. There are also times when I pray and speak in tongues in my "closet" or in private. The Bible speaks about tongues edifying the body. Yes through prayer, and fasting and the living word of God I feel that God has revealed things to me.
debmlopez30 Furthermore I know of of instances that individuals who spoke no foriegn language have spoken ain tongues and ministered through the Holy Ghost to other individuals who have spoke that language. The Bible says that speaking in tongues is a heavenly language.

Passiflora101 Have you, yourself received any special, individual revelation through thoughts, impressions, or feelings, as if God is still speaking to us?

debmlopez30 Yes. And I do believe God is still speaking to His people!

Passiflora101 If you've received special revelation from God, may I ask what it was He said?

debmlopez30 Do you ask because you have no faith to believe for yourself that God still speaks to His people? Have you never had the experience on your own?

Passiflora101 Friend...I used to attend Pentecoastal churches. They deny the very foundations of Protestantism. You've admitted you don't know what those five teachings are. Pentecostals are in direct violation of one - "Sola Scriptura" - Scripture Alone, as the ONLY Word of God, in much the same way the Roman Catholic Church did & still does. This has lead to faulty doctrine on both ends. Are we to trust the Word of God, or the "feelings" of thousands of INFALLIBLE people?
Passiflora101 LOL...ANOTHER CORRECTION~Are we to trust the INFALLIBLE Word of God, or the "feelings" of thousands of "FALLIBLE" people?See how imperfect I am?  :-)

debmlopez30 I'm sorry I don't know your name, but I believe the word of God to be the Infallible word of God. Do you? Because if you do then who wrote the Bible? And how did they obtain the knowledge, and who instructed them to do so?

Passiflora101 If you believe the Bible to be the INFALLIBLE Word of God, then you CANNOT believe in FALLIBLE people who come up with their own ideas.
Passiflora101 The Bible is God-breathed, "inspired" into around 40 people - like we don't know who wrote Hebrews - so it's an estimate. All mainline churches, excluding Pentecostalism believe God stopped speaking to us at the close of canon.

debmlopez30 I did not know that you believed that God quit speaking to his people. Please explain to me why. However please email it to me because I'm leaving for home now ;) Also I'm assuming that you are Baptist? Am I correct?

Passiflora101 No...not a Baptist. Reformed. My PM to you on Sola Scriptura will explain why I believe God stopped speaking to us. If you can't grasp it from that, I have more info. The reason you think other churches believe as you do is because many Charismatics have invaded them. I don't agree with some of the teachings of the Lutheran church either, such as infant baptism & gays now accepted into the pulpit. But I agree with the foundations of Protestantism.
Passiflora101 I will send you an article in a PM to explain further what I am saying. It's too long to post here. You need to understand how Pentecostalism is not based solely on the Bible, but on Mysticism.And if the Holy Spirit is working in us & someone were to check out both your channel & mine, who would they say the Holy Spirit is really working in? Where is evidence that He works in you?

debmlopez30 Because I have a blank channel page? Thats a little silly don't you think? Its wonderful you've posted many videos of different ministers speaking on your page, you've quoted many scriptures. By your "works" do you think that will ensure your spot in Heaven friend?

Passiflora101 It's not silly at all. These are not "my" works, but evidence of the works of the Holy Spirit. PROOF. They are not of me, for I am nothing without Him. I am just a doulos. No one is saved by works. Although Catholics are taught to believe that. The selling of indulgences to "buy your way" out of purgatory (not found in the Bible,) was in violation of Sola Fida - Faith Alone, not works.
Passiflora101 These instances where someone spoke in a real foreign language...did you witness that live, in action yourself?

debmlopez30 No I have not witnessed that myself in person.

justinnichols5
@Passi~ I don't think you're really listening (reading) very well to all that deb has been saying.

First of all, she never claimed that many other churches believe as she does, so don't put words in her mouth.

Secondly, you're coming off pretty brash and arrogant in your comments, while she is not. Work on your delivery.

Third, more holistically, you need to recognize and pray for revelation of the consistency and immutability of God. He does not change...
He has been and is and ALWAYS will be the same. Since the very beginning, since Adam and Eve, God has spoken to His creation. He has revealed mysteries, shown His character, proven His justice, imparted His love, declared His sovereignty, released His grace, called His chosen, and with unmatched power and majesty changed the hearts of men and women. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE. Therefore, reason (and wisdom) would tell us that God STILL does all of those things. Just because His Word is in writing for us to read and study does NOT mean that His Word is LIMITED to that location or medium. Sola scriptora excludes OTHER writings as the supreme and infallible Word of God; it doesn't mean that God cannot speak to us still today!

4th, you must know that by asking all the questions how you asked them, it exposes your disbelief in not only God's ultimate omnipotence, but also in the goodness and beauty of the new creations He has brought into His Kingdom.....all of the wonderful brothers and sisters that Jesus Christ purchased by His perfect sacrifice and subsequently raised to life by His resurrection from death. I know it's difficult to believe solely in the person... I wouldn't recommend that. I would suggest trusting in the amazing, ever-loving God who resides in every person who has believed on and professed the name of Jesus, as Lord and Savior of all. That way, you can know that it's not just some guy or girl inventing to push an agenda...You can know it's from Someone greater and perfect and truly loving.

Believing in the work of the Holy Spirit, through tongues & visions & prophecies & healings, etc, is slightly mystical, I'll admit. However, you have to realize that your beliefs have an enormous mystical element as well. The fact that you claim theres a Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, none of which we can see, who love you and one who died for all sins 2,000 years ago, and one who made everything, is also very mystical..... That's why it's called Faith! We believe in absolutely fantastical things, and readily put our lives in the hands of a trinity we do not see. But the glorious revelation of such is the beauty of it all-- that's why 1 Peter says that even angels long to look into such things.

Do not discard someone else's claim of the Holy Spirit's workings just due to its fruit's inexplicable and mysterious qualities; that person may very well have a legitimate anointing from the God you serve and love...
...And do not discount something that you personally have never seen or heard simply because it hasnt been in your life experience. God reveals Himself to someone at the times & places that are perfect for that person in whatever he/she is going thru, in order that He might be more glorified. You need to realize that a believer in Jesus Christ loves Him and is trying to understand more about Him & what He's done. If God chooses to use tongues, prophecies, etc to do it, you must accept that.

I've written to you at length because I'm finding out more about the wide & disturbing divide there is b/t those who place heavy emphasis on teaching & learning Scripture as a means for sanctification, and those who emphasize more the experience of Spirit-led fellowship as the path on which to walk for Christ-likeness.

I wish desperately for a bridge to be built between the two... for people to understand & know deeply how imperative they both are in our lives... And for us to LOVE one another!